Transcript – Daniel Vitalis: Rewild Yourself! – #141
Dave: Today’s cool fact of the day is that in 1859, the fossil of a 420-year-old mushroom was found. It was called a Prototaxities. The mushroom, laying down, was three feet tall, but if it had been standing, it would have been about thirty feet tall. We don’t know, but I like to imagine that it was red with white dots on the top.
That voice laughing in the background was none other than Daniel Vitalis who is a leading health, nutrition, and personal development strategist and calls himself a nature-based philosopher. One of the guys behind this amazing website called FindASpring.com where you can go to find clean spring water, which has a different effect on your body. Most people have never had the pleasure of actually drinking out of a spring right out of the ground because we’re all afraid that we’re going to get some sort of weird parasite. When it’s actually a spring, that’s not going to happen. It does taste amazing. That’s one of the reasons you go backpacking.
You also may have heard of SurThrival.com which is a brand that Daniel’s created which talks about rewilding and has a lot of really amazing herbal preparations. I believe there’s a book in the pipeline. We’ll let Daniel talk about that.
Daniel, welcome to the show, man.
Daniel: Thank you for having me, Dave. Really good to be here with you.
Dave: I hear crickets in the background. Is that a laptop fan or is that actually a cricket?
Daniel: That’s actually cr- Yeah. I couldn’t get them to pipe down for the morning. I am in Maine. I do live in the forest.
Dave: I was going to ask if you were eating them. I don’t mind that there’s a cricket in the forest. I live in the forest, too. I was just thinking you had a bucket of them you were going to eat for breakfast with a spoon.
Daniel: No. I don’t like having them in my teeth during my interview.
Dave: Do you eat crickets?
Daniel: I’m definitely getting into entomophagy. Crickets haven’t been my favorite thing, but I’ve been playing with dragon flies and June bugs, actually.
Daniel: That has been on my radar. Cricket, I think, would be- I’ve been really toying with raising crickets, actually, as a project. Get my own genetic strain going.
Dave: That is fascinating and interesting and not where I thought we’d start talking. June bugs, wow. I’ve had my share of termites out of the mound and Mexican grasshopper tacos were fantastic. I ate those recently in the Bay Area with some illegally imported grasshoppers, apparently. I was offended, personally. That’s awesome. If you come up with a super muscular strain of crickets, I think you could have cricket wings. There’s a whole thing going on there.
Daniel: On it.
Dave: What is rewilding, Daniel?
Daniel: Rewilding is a word that I’ve turned on to human beings but is being used in a lot of different contexts. Usually it’s being used in reference to different ecosystems. We hear about the rewilding of Europe, for instance, which was a project to bring back some of the animals, the flora, the fauna, that were there prior to the Neolithic Revolution. Not a lot of people have turned the idea onto humans themselves. There’s a big taboo humans have against exploring their own wild nature.
The term rewild, it means, I have it here. Rewild. A verb. Means to restore to its natural, uncultivated state. As I see it, the word rewilding has an antonym. That would be domesticated. Domesticated means like domicile. The word domestic, that same word is domicile, refers to a house. Domesticated means of the house. For about 6 to 10,000 years, human beings have been not only domesticating plants and domesticating animals. Maybe inadvertently, we domesticated ourselves.
Here’s the crux of the whole thing and the important piece and why I’m into this idea of rewilding. We understand that the lettuces we eat, let’s say romaine lettuce. We understand that’s not a natural organism anymore. That’s a domesticated human biological artifact that’s drawn out of the wild lettuce, lactuca serriola. We’ve created lactuca sativa, the domestic version. We know that the dog is a great wolf, but it’s the domesticated subspecies, canus lupus familiaris. The wild animal is the great wolf.
My postulation is this. Human beings as we exist today, or I like to call us the moderns. Moderns are not actually homo sapiens, but we’re a subspecies that is domesticated. I call us homo sapien domestico fragilis.
Daniel: The fragile domestic homo sapiens subspecies.
Dave: I thought you were going to say homo sapiens wussicus or something.
Daniel: Yeah. Actually I wanted to use Latin that was correct, Dave. I played with that for a while. I have a friend, Arthur Haines, who’s a taxonomist, and together, we’ve built this theory out which started as a joke but has actually become quite serious because if you apply the parameters of domestication to humans, you see that we certainly are. We’re less robust and more gracile in our bodies. We’re leaner and thinner and smaller. We carry neotenous or childlike characteristics into adulthood, like shaved legs and bald public hair. We mate and breed in captivity. We eat a diet of domesticated food. We are a domestic subspecies.
That means there’s a wild form of humans. Those would be the indigenous people that still live in these little isolated pockets like over in New Guinea, parts of Africa, parts of South America, parts of India, and a few islands where there are still fully wild humans. Stone age wild human beings. The news is this. They’re healthier than us. They’re stronger than us. They’re more fit than us in a lot of ways.
Unfortunately, we’re literally at the brink of the most monumental moment in human history. The extinction of the wild form of humans. It’s about to happen. No one’s talking about it. We will lose the strength of our gene pool in the process. We’ll be left in the shallow end. This idea of rewilding is we got to wake up to this a little bit and start figuring out how we can reawaken. It’s in our genes still. It’s in our DNA. It’s in our genome. Just like it’s good to take your dog and encourage behaviors, dietary practices and things like that that are reminiscent of the wolf because it makes them healthier, we can do the same thing for us. That’s human rewilding.
Dave: This may be a tough question, and maybe you’ve heard it before. You were talking about changing human DNA. Are you talking about crossbreeding wild humans with non-wild humans, so isn’t that going to dilute the wild genes with our wuss genes, our fragilis genes?
Daniel: Nice, you got the lingo down. I like it. I’m not actually saying that. That would be eugenics, right, if I could-
Dave: That’s where I’m like eugenics is bad. We all agree.
Daniel: I’m just a guy up in Maine. That’s not what I’m up to. I do think, if you think about humans- One of the challenging things about talking about this, there is nothing politically incorrect about saying that’s a greyhound, that’s a dachshund, that’s a sheepdog. We’re just super comfortable with that. We use the term breed to denote those different variants of the subspecies of the domestic wolf or the dog.
Humans fall into similar categories typically we used to call races. Now that’s all really delicate. Nobody wants to go there. The word race is the same; it means the same thing as breed which also means the same thing as subspecies. It used to be a way of denoting that there’s a sub-Saharan group of people that looks different, has different phenotype than a European version, than a South American version. We have names for that, and that all has gotten very confused and mixed in with racism. Difficult to go there.
The point is, in our modern world, really only three variants are being represented well. We have the Afro-descended black people, we call them. We have the white European people. We have the Asiatic people who used to be called the Mongolian or Mongoloid people. Not really a term people use anymore. Those people are being well-represented, but not how we don’t see the aboriginal walking down the streets of New York City or in Canada where you are. You don’t typically run into somebody who’s like that’s an Australian aboriginal right there. They’re almost extinct.
The same is true of the capoid which are the bushmen people of the Kalahari which are almost- They’re African descended, but they have some characteristics that are different than what we think of as black people. One thing is their hair grows in what we call peppercorn formations. Little almost like dots of hair. They have different genitals. Did you know that?
Dave: No, I had no idea.
Daniel: Yeah. The men are always partially erect, and the women also have partially erect labia. Their whole clitoral network is partially engorged.
In the same way that we’re comfortable saying there’s differences in different breeds of dogs or there’s differences between a romaine lettuce and a iceberg lettuce. None is better than the other; they’re just all variants. Similarly, there’s variants in humans, but we’re losing a lot of the diversity. I’m not saying we need to get a program going where we mix back in, but I do think- That might be nice, but- My point is, is that the greatest genetic diversity lies with those capoid people in Africa. As they are the closest to extinction, I just think it’s a shame because so much of our genetic strength and memory resides in those peoples. What we’re going to be left with soon is-
This has happened with the cow, incidentally. The cow, Bos taurus, is the only extant member of its species. The wild cow has been extinct since the 1600s, so there’s no way to go back and breed cows back to get their strength back. We’re left with these sucky Holsteins.
Dave: We’re doing it with chickens. We’re doing it with lamb. With all the good animals. All the good hogs. It’s terrible. Getting a heritage breed hog to make bacon; it changes your life, man. It’s the good stuff. It’s just not the same.
Now we’re seeing we’ve screwed up our animals because we domesticated the crap out of them. We forgot what the wild ones look like. Although those genes are still in there; they’re just turned off, right? We haven’t lost the genes.
Daniel: Yeah, they’re turned off, and there has been some interesting experiments trying to back breed, it’s called. The Nazis really got into this. It was some creepy weird stuff. Their whole master race concept. They thought let’s reverse engineer cows back into aurochs, and that will show that our theory works. They tried it.
Dave: I did not know this. You’re full of cool stuff.
Daniel: Yeah, this is some interesting stuff.
They worked with these two guys called the Heck brothers. I always say, “What the heck?” Out of that came the Heck cattle. What they did was they selected cows that had the most similar characteristics to the aurochs. The bigger, more muscular, more front-pointing horns, all that. They ended up with a really interesting breed of animals called Heck cattle which look like mini-aurochs, almost. The wild cow. Basically what was learned is through breeding techniques, we don’t know how to reverse engineer. With new emerging genetic techniques, perhaps. There’s definitely a movement towards rewilding some wild landscapes.
I just think it’s something we need to start talking about and start looking at as a species. It’s not just everything else that’s domesticated. It’s us, too. Domestication doesn’t typically bring forth better qualities. It brings forth more dependent qualities, qualities dependent on the style of living that we’re doing which is the practice of husbandry or agriculture.
Dave: You’re treading into some definitely controversial territory there.
Daniel: Yeah, all right.
Dave: My first book, The Better Baby Book, I cowrote it with my wife Lana, it’s what are the things you can do in your environment around you to have the best genetic expression in your kids. You and I agree, it’s not eugenics. The genes were there. Could you just make the good stuff turn on, so that your kids will have healthier brains and better bones and skin and a straight jaw.
Let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about raising kids. My kids are in a Waldorf school. I decided to do that because they spend two hours a day outdoors. I live in basically a cold rainforest up here on Vancouver Island. We just got enough land. They go outside. They can play. I’m a little concerned about cougars eating them, but they can play as much as they want outside and they do. They come in just covered with bites and scratches and handfuls of berries that I’ve never eaten. Ever had a thimbleberry?
Daniel: Yeah, they’re awesome.
Dave: They’re awesome, but they disintegrate when you touch them. You could never sell a thimbleberry.
Daniel: Raspberry mixed with strawberry almost.
Dave: Yeah. They’re so delicious. Anna knows more- There’s seven kinds of berries growing in our backyard. I only know three of them, but she knows all of them and she’s seven. I’m trying to bring that in. Of course we did the high fat, what would you eat if you really wanted kids to be healthy. Aren’t we turning on those genes that are there?
I’ve got a lot of Northern European stuff. My genes aren’t that strong. I’m great as a marauder. I could go into a village, whack people. My blood will clot quickly, so I can take a couple arrows, then give you the finger, throw your women over my shoulder, and run away. I think that’s what my genes are optimized for.
Daniel: Wow, Dave. You’re smart. You’re a smart guy. Very few people even understand what you just articulated. Your breed, like a greyhound’s designed for running, us European breeds are here for conquest and citybuilding. We have a hard time sitting still like a greyhound has a hard time sitting still and wants to run. We’re bred to ambition, accomplish more, productivity. We have a hard time even relaxing because we’re-
Dave: We’re like the terriers. Ahhh!
It’s funny though because it changes even the way my immune system works. It’s hyper aggressive. It’s like, yeah, you want to throw down? In a modern, domesticated world, it’s not an advantage on that side of things because my blood’s too sticky if I don’t manage it carefully and because I’m more sensitive to mold toxins in the environment. If you breathe them, I get a very fast inflammatory response. We know 28% of people have those genes, but those genes aren’t just in Northern Europeans. They’re more common, but black people have those genes.
You and I can sit down and go there’s a lineage, a bloodline, of aboriginals or of First Nations people up here in Canada. We can go back a hundred generations or however long oral things take us, and we could look genetically. What about the rest of us who are carrying my 4.5% Neanderthal, which 23andMe told me. How do I turn those on and off in myself or in my kids or my grandkids. There’s got to be ways to do this because this is part of rewilding. Honestly, it doesn’t make sense for me to send my wife to go mate with aboriginals somewhere in order to bring the genes back. It’s not going to happen.
Daniel: I want to be clear. I’m not suggesting that.
Dave: You’re not. What’s the next best thing. What do we do here?
Daniel: I just want to go back to the eugenics piece and say eugenics was always done from the top down on people. That was, I think, a horrific thing. Typically, it was flipped around from rewilding. The idea was that we were trying to make this super domesticated race and actually wipe out all of the wild people which is-
Daniel: So stupid, right? It’s like as if chihuahuas are the best and chihuahuas get rid of every other type of dog. Argh!
Dave: You just compared Nazis to chihuahuas which is hilarious.
Daniel: They are. Basically.
Dave: I buy that.
Daniel: That’s what they are.
Then they wanted to try to control it top down. I think that we need to flip this idea and say let’s empower the individual to take the steps they want to take. Let’s let this thing sort itself out like that because we’re all taking these practices and we’re putting them into play.
I don’t know how novel any of these rewilding ideas really are for your audience, but essentially, one of the ways that we’re going to do- You’re talking about epigenetics and the idea that basically everything we’re doing is training for our genome. Every single- Literally, sitting in front of Skype right now is training out- We’d have kids that were better at Skyping if we were to contribute to the gene pool today because we’re doing it now. Whatever we’re doing.
I think what it really comes down to is looking at our lifestyle and saying how can we bring as much of what is natural to our species back in and still live our modern lives. Here’s how I would break it down. I say imagine you take a chimpanzee, pull him out of the jungle, and you’re going to bring him home to live in North America. What’s your interest? Is it in keeping that animal healthy, living a long productive life?
If so, you’d set up habitat that resembled, as much as possible, those natural settings. The last thing you would do is rent an apartment, stick the ape in there, get it, here’s some Uncle Ben’s and some Cup O’ Noodle. Here’s TV, remote. Sit him on a La-Z-Boy chair and have him drink chlorinated water and take pharmies. We all know what would happen.
We’re trying to do that to ourselves, and it’s actually destroying us, so much so, that I think we could almost say we’ve halted our adaptation and evolution because what’s killing people now is degenerative disease. You don’t degenerate and evolve at the same time. It’s one way or the other. They’re antonyms. If people are dying of degenerative diseases, that means that most people are no longer making progress. The changes have happened so rapidly they’re cascading downward.
Some of us are halting that and making the movement forward. I call that rewilding. It sounds like you call it biohacking. We all have our way of determining, calling it, or whatever our paradigm is. What we’re doing is we’re all trying to get that movement happening again where we’re adapting at a pace that’s sustainable. If we don’t set up- Right now, what we’re living in is a human factory farm.
Dave: Well said.
Daniel: The purpose of a farm, remember, is never the animal’s health, happiness, well-being, longevity. It’s about getting maximum productivity at whatever expense with the knowledge that you’ll end that animal’s life shortly. You’re not interested in- A chicken can live twelve years, let’s say, but we end their lives at two. We’re not interested in the longevity.
We are not going to go back to the wild tomorrow. Sorry, it’s not even there anymore. We need something else. We need a human zoo. A zoo is a place where you keep the animal there for maximum health, for maximum expression of wild behavior, for preservation of its genetics, for research, for understanding, for learning. Your interest is in that animal being as healthy as possible. You recreate habitat, recreate diets so that everything is as similar to the wild as possible even though it’s a approximation.
What we’re living in is a world where we’re born in captivity. We’re snipped and cut right at birth. We’re traumatized. We’re indoctrinated. We’re brainwashed. We have our sensory gating apertures shut down. Then we produce product, services, and taxation money nonstop until we die prematurely. That’s a factory farm for humans. In fact it’s a mono-crop. We’re in a monoculture feedlot for humans.
The rewilding idea is not actually go back to the wild because that will work for a handful of people.
Dave: It’s a fantasy, yeah.
Daniel: We can start to say, in my house, if I was going to bring a wild human here, how do I want to set it up? What do I want to be available for food, water, air, sunlight, movement, exercise? How do I want to set that up so that it’s more like a zoo and less like a farm?
Dave: That’s an amazing goal. Certainly, the fact that the environment you’re in really influences your cognitive and your physical performance is undeniable.
Daniel: [Crosstalk 00:20:21].
Dave: If you feel crap- Yeah, genetic, that’s true. If you feel like crap in a cubicle, it’s normal to feel like crap in a cubicle. I spent so much of my life in them. I’m like, I’m not doing this anymore. It’s just not worth it. Is it the air? Is it the bad lighting? Is it the constant interruptions? Is it the bad coffee? Bad food? All this stuff that’s a part of 90% of people’s working lives when they just go into these sealed office buildings; it just has nothing to do with what life is supposed to be like. You just wonder, maybe it’s just me. Actually, no. Somebody needs to break the windows and let air in.
Daniel: It’s like the chicken in the feedlot or the cow in the feedlot or the chicken in the battery cages who can sense, no doubt, that something, that the circumstances don’t feel right, but because they have no experience of what the reality for chickens would be like, they can’t ever conceive that what they’re in is a prison.
Similarly, if we don’t have a way- Here’s the thing. Our paradigm- I brought the definitions of wildness. I think they’re really worth looking at for people. My dictionary has fourteen definitions for wild. The first one is untamed, undomesticated. The second one is uncultivated, native, and indigenous.
What follows are twelve definitions that scare the crap out of any good civilized Christian. Here they are: primitive, uncivilized, uncultured, savage, barbaric, barbarious, uninhabited, unpopulated, wasteland, desolate, barren, disheveled, tussled, tangled, uncontrolled, unrestrained, riotous, disorderly, unrestrained. They just go on and on and on. Disregardful of moral restraint or too much pleasurable indulgence. Unrestrained by reason or prudence.
What we have is this intrinsic taboo. In order to maintain civilization in the way that it works now, you have to brainwash the people. I’m not saying that there are people up there making this decision. Whether it’s that or it’s collective, however it works, we have programmed ourselves to think there’s something inherently other about wildness. Scary, unorganized. If we let it get to us, it’s going to tear down all good things. We’ll become barbaric again. Barbaric comes from the same word as barber. It just means to have long hair.
I want to add to that that the French word- Remember before I said that indigenous people are wild humans. The French word for a wild human is savage, is sa-VAGE. Savage means wild. If you’re into wild plants in Montreal where I’ve hung out a lot, you’re looking for savage plants. Plants that are savage, wild. We call these people savages, and then instead of letting that word mean wild, we’ve turned that word into all of- It has all these negative connotations.
Dave: Mad Max, that kind of thing.
Daniel: Yeah, exactly. Post apocalyptic. Guys with Mohawk helmets running you down on teched out motorbikes. That’s scary. All of the scientific information that we see coming in seems to keep corroborating this idea that every step away from nature leads to a breakdown in our health, whether it’s sitting too much, whether it’s not getting enough wild plant anti-oxidants. Whether it’s the nutrients being too low, whether it’s the back breaking labor of farming at the beginning of the Neolithic Revolution. Everything seems to point to the one thing that humans are not seeming to be able to actually acknowledge, which is that we are healthier in our wild environment.
We have this picture, and here’s, I think, where the amazing wonderful, and I fully support the Paleo movement, but here’s where they’ve failed us a little bit is that what Chris Ryan calls, and he gave me permission to use this because I told him I loved it so much. That Flintstone-ization of wild people. I think if we were to pull up the top ninety, hundred Paleo companies, they’re logo would be a caveman in an asymmetrical-
Dave: A loincloth, yeah.
Daniel: [Inaudible 00:20:21] rotting skin with a spear. What we’re learning is that is a caricature. That isn’t who we are or were.
Dave: Or want to be.
Daniel: Or want to be, right. What makes more sense is the highly sophisticated Native American type cultures. We don’t typically think of Native Americans as being those barbaric savages, do we? Now, culturally, I think we understand that they had art, music, dance, sophisticated world views.
Dave: Unless you’re a Redskins fan, right?
Daniel: Yeah, exactly. Then we caricature.
What’s interesting is when Europeans arrived in North America, the North American continent was in the Stone Age 400 years ago. These are sophisticated people living very beautiful lives. That is a more wild life. What I’m talking about is not going back to some kind of cave bear fighting made up story. Now we even know Neanderthals weren’t like that. We figured out we weren’t like that, but those Neanderthals were. Now we know they were more sophisticated, too.
I want to be clear. I’m not just a Luddite saying we got to go back to some kind- That’s not going happen. We can integrate what those people did, knew, learned, how they lived with how we live in that zoo environment. My theory is this: if we do this generationally for a while, we become something new. I call it homo sapiens neo aborigini.
Daniel: We’re not going to go back to being wild, but maybe we can create a stronger subspecies because this one we are right now is degenerating. Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, tooth decay, bone decay. We’re coming unglued.
Dave: You said something interesting. You said that we were in a factory farm. Some indigenous people would believe that for sure, but who is the factory farmer in your experience? Who’s running the farm?
Daniel: I published an online magazine called Rewild Yourself. The next edition, I put it out on the solstices, equinox, and cross quarters. The next one coming out is called The Operant Condition. It looks at how operant conditioning is used to domesticate us. On the cover, I’ve been trying to figure out how to show that because I don’t know. I wish I knew. The conspiracy people love to, “It’s these top twelve people at the top of the pyramid.” Maybe. Maybe it’s reptilian aliens. Maybe it’s the collective unconscious of humans as we auto-domesticate.
I don’t know who the factory farmer is, but certainly the governments of the world function as, at least, farmhands. They at least function as farmhands. People who work in government, they function as farmhands. Doctors function like the vets on the farm.
It’s interesting. You wouldn’t medically traumatize animals in a zoo. You’re very careful about that. Look how you medically traumatize animals on a factory farm. Snip the beaks off a chicken, cut the tails off of a [inaudible 00:27:22], cut the foreskin off of baby boys. However you want to do it, those are things you’d do on a farm but you wouldn’t do in a zoo. In a zoo, it’s like how do we minimize the traumatic impact.
Whoever the farmer is or whoever they are or however that works, I don’t know. To me, it’s an unseen hand. I think that’s how I’m going to show it on the cover of the next magazine is an unseen hand.
Dave: That’s a good way of putting it. My degree is in decision support systems which is a subset of artificial intelligence. A lot of my career has been looking at emergent behavior in large-scale networks. I’m pretty sure that a lot of corporate evil isn’t that companies or executives set out to do evil. There are a few assholes out there, but this is more about a million decisions get made to optimize a certain outcome, and they’re tiny decisions that don’t appear to be evil. When you add them up, it happens.
Daniel: It’s emergent is what you’re saying.
Dave: It’s an emergent behavior that we didn’t know we were optimizing for that, but we did through just a few rules. The other one is the indigenous South American shamanic, what’s the guy’s name. Don Juan. One of the most classic shamanic texts. There’s these black slime creatures that feed off negative emotions, so they make the world dark. There’s no aliens in that one, but that is a very common shamanic viewpoint. Either there’s this unseen world that indigenous people are more connected to, and the indigenous people I know, especially medicine men, those guys have skills that are not normal. I don’t know what to say about that, but they’re just not normal.
Daniel: Are we talking about- Are what those people see- Because I’ve had the opportunity to be in some really powerful ceremonies, and I always wonder are they seeing something that I’m not seeing, or are they seeing a projection of archetype? Does that emergent behavior take on, in the archetypical dream world realm of the mind, that black slime, or is it really a black slime? Whichever way it works almost doesn’t matter because what I know is that energy is so oppressive and feels so virulent that I feel driven away from it. That’s led me to where I’m at today teaching what I teach.
I’ve felt it ever since I was young. I remember feeling it. My friend Shailene was recently in this movie Divergent. I don’t know if you say that.
Dave: Not yet.
Daniel: Yeah, it’s a big Hollywood thing. She played a character that couldn’t be brainwashed. She was divergent.
Dave: No, I’m sorry, that was a killer movie. I did see that. Cool, I didn’t recognize the name. Cool.
Daniel: That’s been a fun theme for me because I feel like I was always divergent. The programming didn’t work well on me. I always was looking around going is everybody else just like chickens? Are their feet just growing into the cages? I’m trying to find a way out of this thing. Honestly, that’s let over the years to this work I’m doing now which is looking at what can we actually do.
Boots on the ground, what do we do? Bare feet on the ground, how do we actually start to live in a way that can support our health because if we don’t take really strong action, we’ll just get swept up in the current of culture, and it’s so dangerous to- Culture’s not your friend, I think, is what Terence McKenna used to say. I’d say civilization is not your friend. [[Inaudible 00:30:30] Winston loved Big Brother.
Dave: Let’s switch gears a bit because you and I have something else in common. We’ve both been raw vegans. Tell me what happened. Why are you a former raw vegan?
Daniel: Sure. Let me say why I got into it, which was I’ve been thinking of this idea of human wildness since I was quite young. Some things seem obvious to me now that weren’t obvious to me then. At the time, it really made sense, I bought into that idea that in nature I would not cook and I would eat fruits and vegetables, and that made a lot of sense to me. I didn’t have the foresight at the time. I was about fifteen years old when I started that. I didn’t understand that fire was something homo sapiens have had since they existed as a species and goes back several hominids before us. I also didn’t understand that all the fruits that I was eating that I thought were natural foods don’t come from nature at all.
Dave: They were bags of watery candy, right?
Daniel: Yeah. These are, I call them artifacts. One distinction I like to make is to say what’s the difference between an arrowhead and the piece of flint that it was knapped from? The piece of flint is a wild occurring stone. The arrowhead is the same stone, but it bears the mark of human will upon it. It’s an artifact. That’s where we get the word artificial. That’s where we get the breakdown in that thinking of nuclear bombs are natural technically because everything comes from nature. No, it bears the mark of human will. Therefore it’s an artifact.
I didn’t know that the fruits like bananas. I didn’t know that every banana was a clone. I didn’t know that every banana I’d eaten from childhood into adulthood was genetically the same banana or every Red Delicious was the same Red Delicious or every Cortland apple was the same. These are all clones. No one told me I was eating clones. Most people don’t know they’re eating clones. They wouldn’t eat cloned animals if they knew, but they eat cloned fruits. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that the vegetables I were eating were the palest versions.
It took me a while to get to that. I did it for about ten years. It started really, really good. It ended with me pretty busted up and feeling like I was having a lot of immune compromise. I was having a lot of cerebral-type nervous system compromise. I just felt overall like I was hungry all the time. It was Weston Price’s work that really helped me bust through that.
Dave: Me, too.
Daniel: That’s when I really got I can look at indigenous people and that’s the answer. I was living off of this Garden of Eden parable that prior to- We could live without disease and without death by just eating the fruits off the trees. I didn’t get that there weren’t really fruits like that on the trees.
Dave: You would also eat the snake off the tree while you were at it.
You went ten years, which is pretty impressive. You must have been relatively healthy when you started?
Daniel: Yeah. I was young. I wasn’t sick when I started. I was fifteen years old, and I was, at the time- I’m sure, like yourself, it draws an extreme character. You [inaudible 00:33:35] willing to push through what most people will push through. That’s always been me. I’m always willing to go a little bit further than most people seem to want to go. Sometimes that works to my advantage. Other times it works to my detriment. When I was young and immoderate, yeah, I did, I pushed that too long.
Now, looking back- I also damaged my teeth. I’ve since had a few cavities filled. I was born with, really blessed with a good dental arch. Perfect teeth. I’ve never had any dental problems. I developed dental problems doing that diet. One of the interesting things, now I see that it’s a cult.
Dave: Yeah, it is.
Daniel: It functions like a cult. In order to pull somebody out of scientist, you actually have to use the same kind of technique that you’d use to pull somebody out of another type of cult.
Dave: You don’t, man. There’s an elixir. It’s called bulletproof coffee. You give that to a vegan one time, and they’re like, “Oh my God. I got cholesterol. I feel so much better than I have in so long. I guess I can have butter again.”
Daniel: “So much energy now.” Yeah, it’s funny because you’ve been taught to see the world really differently. In that world, butter, you look at it, and it’s like that will clog my arteries. That won’t work for me. It takes a while to flip it around.
I’ve done a lot of work to pull as many people out of that way of thinking as I can.
Dave: Yeah, we share that.
Daniel: Yes. I learned the cleansing techniques that are so valuable to me. As I experience more of what the Paleo world is like, I want to knit those two worlds together. The Paleo people get all the building side of it. The raw foodie people have all the cleansing side of it. They need to criss cross technologies really badly because one of the things that’s important for us to keep in mind is that we’re living in a world that is so toxic on a dramatic level. Not just industrial toxins but nuclear toxins. Then increasing microbe virulence. We’re dealing with more stuff.
Interestingly, too, we live- Domesticated means of the house. We live indoors, which is obviously a word that didn’t really exist 10,000 years ago because people didn’t live indoors. They didn’t have doors or walls. They might have had a tipi, but you have good airflow. People were not living indoors.
We didn’t have to deal with things like dust which is dead skin. You get that house full of dust thing going on. That’s dead skin from you and everybody who’s living in your house. Outside, that just gets wound down and biodegraded into the environment, but in our houses it accumulates. Mites live in that, and then we breathe that and filter that through us all day long in addition to the chlorofluorocarbons and all the stuff that’s emerging out of our industrial furniture or the lack of sun.
We’re compounding all this stuff by living indoors toxic lives. If we don’t have technologies- I like to note that the Native Americans did the sweat lodge all over this continent. They lived in essentially the purest, cleanest environment possible, and yet they still cleansed their bodies through the sweating mechanism which is powerful because talk about hack. Your skin eliminates both oil-soluble toxins and water-soluble toxins. You can’t achieve that with you peeing stuff out. That’s water-soluble only. You can poop out a little bit of fat-soluble stuff, but the skin is the big secret. They knew that, and they lived in a clean environment.
How much more do we need that stuff now? We have to reduce our toxic load. I think we need a cleansing lifestyle. It has to be integrated in. That’s if it goes above and beyond the other thing.
Dave: If you want to kick ass, that’s the way to do it. What did they eat? Clay and activated charcoal? There’s a reason, product plug here, I have an activated charcoal that’s ultra-fine and all that that I make. It’s, in fact, the only one that’s that fine on the market because surface area matters so much. My brain works better when I bind toxins. It’s not a great leap to think that that would make sense.
Like you, in the vegan world, when I was a raw vegan, I did learn a lot. I did liver flushes and all sorts of detoxes. Like you, I split a couple teeth and ran into a lot of weird pain. My brain turned off, and I got a lot of auto-immunity stuff I didn’t have. I went back, and now, also like you, I’m a fan of cholesterol and a fan of eating butter and all that stuff. There was a healing period it took, which is weird because you did it as a young guy. People under twenty-five can handle a raw vegan diet, and they feel good for longer.
If you’re over twenty-five, in my experience just talking with followers and people, there’s about a three-month, I call it the vegan trap. For three months, you’re like, yes, I feel so clean. I lost weight. I feel good. My skin’s glowing.
Daniel: [Inaudible 00:38:14] website right away.
Dave: Exactly. Really, it’s evangelical because you feel awesome. What’s going on there is a mitochondrial thing from excessive omega-6, but it’s short term. Then when you start to decline, it’s slow. We don’t notice slow. All the sudden you’re humbled and dulled by something that used to be-
Daniel: It must be toxic. I must have more cleansing to do. Because I’m pretty networked into the raw vegan world, I know some of the top names. One of the things that was happening, I came out and started- I never taught raw veganism. I was already past that, but I was in that world. I got to speak with those big names. Talk about the stuff we’re talking about. I was really hated in that scene. I got a lot of- Everything from the death threats to the trolling, the whole thing. People hated what I was talking about for a while.
Then it slowly started to- What happen was behind the scenes, a lot of those people who were the teachers in that community would be eating salmon and butter with me. I’d say, “When are you going to tell the truth about this?” They were so roped into the identity they had built in that community that they had to figure out strategically a way to tell people that they weren’t doing it anymore. That’s, I think, an important thing for people to know. Behind the scenes, not a lot of those people who talk about it are doing it.
During that three-month period is when most people get their stuff off the ground. They feel so good in the first year they put out all this stuff. Raw is the way, blah blah blah. Then it’s really hard to get out of that because they’ve pigeonholed themselves, and that’s where their money is coming from. It’s very difficult, often, to make a transition because you’ve built that network.
Dave: One of the more scary speeches I’ve given was at the David Wolfe conference. I was honored. David’s a big name, and I’ve got a lot of respect for him. He invited me up there, so I stood up. I said, “Guys, I’m just going have to tell you this, but I’m a lacto-ovo-beefo-porko vegetarian.” That was my opening. Either they’re going to throw, not eggs, but vegan eggs at me or some or we’re going to connect. My talk was why butter is good for you. Why salt is good for you. The feedback was really, really good because I think a lot of the people in the audience maybe just had a little bit of butter every now and then but then they felt guilty.
When you’re like, “No, there’s superfood logic behind butter and egg yolks and all this.” If you give yourself permission to do those things and still adhere to the values that, as a raw vegan, I still agree with. Fresh, healthy, lots of vegetables. All those, I do. Those are Bulletproof Diet things, as well. On top of that, you just layer in some very healthy animal that was fed properly, slaughtered properly, processed properly, and cooked properly.
Daniel: Clean animal food.
Dave: Yeah. When you do that, it changes how you feel. If eating crap makes you feel like this, the first three months of vegan makes you feel like this. Eating vegan, maybe cooking a little bit more of those vegetables, but doing that and then throwing other stuff on, you just keep feeling better and better. That’s what I talk about the Bulletproof state of high performance. You know that feeling because you do this very similar practice.
Daniel: Yeah. I have a friend who got caught up in the drug war. He’s been away for a couple of years. I stay in touch with him. He asked me, “What have I missed in the last couple years?” I was thinking a couple versions of iPhone. Skype was there when you went in. Nothing- I was like, Instagram, and since you’ve been in, coffee and bacon are health foods now. Like (makes sound effect), it’s done a flip job.
There’s this piece that I want to share, and that’s that in the plant realm, here’s a piece that’s missing from both sides of the equation. That’s that when we talk about wild plants, and if you’re somebody who’s hearing this going, I’m never going foraging in my life. That’s not even part of my- That’s no problem because the domestic version of this is called herbalism. That’s where you’re working with wild plants in a more controlled setting.
Whichever way you do it, here’s the thing about wild plants is that they are so fundamentally different than the domestic versions. An example would be, out in my yard right now, we have a plant Queen Anne’s Lace or the wild carrot. All carrots come from there. The seeds of the wild plant will prevent the implantation of a zygote in the uterus. In other words, it’s a birth control. When we breed the plant to create more sugar, bigger, size, more water, we breed out all the bitter tastes. Those bitter tastes are those pharmaceutical drugs that are in the plant.
With our lettuces is the most fascinating one because the wild lettuce is the stuff they sell as marijuana substitutes. If you ever have seen that stuff in the back of a magazine for sale. Legal marijuana. That’s wild lettuce. In both England and the United States, the pharmacopoeias of the 1800 listed the latex of that plant as an opiate substitute and as a drug that you could use to help reduce opiate addiction. Also as a sedative and a hypnotic. You can cut the wild lettuce plant, bleed an opium out of it, and smoke it. You get high from that. I’m not saying that people should or shouldn’t do that. I don’t really care.
Dave: Is iceberg sativa and the dark green is-
Daniel: Yeah. Here’s the thing. That stuff is really bitter tasting. If we were to cut in the bottom of a romaine, you’ll see it bleed a little white latex still. That’s what’s left of that drug, but we’ve bred so much out- The iceberg lettuce, as you know, is you can look through it. It’s translucent. It’s all sweet, no bitter. Then we still see some bitterness in the red leaf or the oak leaf or something like that. That’s the remnant.
My point is this. When we domesticate plants, we typically breed all the drugs out. The drugs range everything from [mew da 00:43:56] modulators to full-on psychoactives to adaptogens. All kinds of different drugs. The whole suite of possible pharmaceuticals. If you remember back Hippocrates’s thing, “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.” Wise, sage advice, but you can’t do it now if you go to the supermarket because none of those foods have medicine.
Dave: I had a bowl of Provigil with milk this morning for breakfast. I didn’t.
Daniel: I think what the vegan people think they’re getting all this medicine from their plants, but their plans typically are lacking in them. What I think has gone on for domestic humans, one of the things is that we have a tremendous medicine deficiency, like a vitamin deficiency, we have a pharmaceutical deficiency.
This is something pharmaceutical companies are able to then sell us back. We’re eating food devoid of it, but we need drugs, so we end up getting them in the form of these pills which are too isolated and too concentrated. They throw us all out of balance, and we’re not able to do what indigenous people do, wild people do, which is get the medicine and the food together in once place.
One thing I think would be great for us who are really on to the cholesterol, animal food, saturated fat paradigm, is to make sure we’re bringing in plants that give us those suites of chemicals because otherwise we end up- We’re on that caricature diet of the perceived caveman who’s getting all the fat, but those people- My friend Arthur I mentioned earlier, the taxonomist, has been trying to publish a paper with the Weston Price Institute for a long time showing how much plant food is actually consumed, not just by indigenous people, but by Inuits.
Daniel: You’d assume the Inuits barely eat- Not true. Especially in the summer months, they’re consuming as many plants, berries, algaes as they can get. Those provide a suite of chemicals, but we picture them eating just fish and whale blubber. That is a caricature. We need to make sure we’re getting not more carbohydrate plants, more medicinal plants. We need to be lifting the levels of those so that we don’t become, so that our body systems don’t start breaking down from a lack of drugs.
Dave: Very well said. You said something earlier that caught my attention. You talked about increasing micro virulence. What are you talking about there? What’s going on with that?
Daniel: Microbes are brilliant. Microbes are brilliant. I’m reading Stephen Buhner’s book right now, Plant Intelligence, his new book, which is exploring emergent behavior in biological systems and the way that microbes communicate is a big portion of the book. He’s talking about how when a microbe becomes resistant to an antibiotic, it doesn’t just become resistant within its own species. It tells other species of microbes how to become resistant to it as well. Then it will figure out other variants you might come up with on that antibiotic, and it will become resistant to those preemptively.
I think what human beings are doing, but we’ve downbred ourselves to a point of extreme weakness. We’ve reduced the medicine quality and quantit- Not quantity because we take it as pharmaceuticals, but quality for sure of our diets. We’ve isolated ourselves into an extremely hygienic environment, so hygienic that, like Boy in the Bubble, we’re actually starving for interaction with other species. We’re too mono-cropped. We’re super susceptible.
Then at the same time, we’ve been educat- In the same way that the US government is educating insurgencies around the world how to fight them better. What we do, we go to Afghanistan and we teach them how to beat us by doing the same thing over and over again. They figure out, this works, this doesn’t work. We’re creating better insurgents that way. I say that with quotations. I don’t really buy into that whole story, but if you understand what I mean. We’re educating bacteria on all of our tricks and teaching them how to beat us better. Then we’re flushing them out by cutting down all the ecosystems, and we’re drawing those out.
I think one of the things that was happening, too, is we’re becoming incredibly susceptible to fungal mold type issues. We’re living in structures that are rotting. A lot of old infrastructure. All this stuff put together, we’re not able to really cope with this toxic load. Add into that nuclear and biological and industrial waste into our tissue, it’s a bad mix. Yeah, I think we’re creating stronger microbes. We’ve just been kicking the can down the road on the next good outbreak, I think.
Dave: It’s funny you mentioned structures. I am just starting filming on a documentary about toxic mold in homes and what it does to you. I’ve got a film team put together and talking with a bunch of experts. I just bought a fifteen-year-old house. Every bathroom had toxic mold growing in it. I mean full-on black mold behind the showers because they were slightly installed wrong. One whole exterior wall had to come off. The crawl space had to be decontaminated. It’s amazing. This is a fifteen-year-old house.
Daniel: It’s a litter box. One of the most difficult things, if you’re going to rewild. Let’s say you decide to go live out in a tent for a while. I do this from time to time. I’m living in one right now outside of my house. I do much in the house in the day, but I sleep outside at night.
Daniel: One of the big challenges is if you decide, I’m not going to use my toilet anymore. Human beings naturally are semi-nomadic. They move through big circuits from camp to camp. They have their summer place and their winter place. They’re moving all the time so their waste doesn’t accumulate. Sedantism, sedentary living like we do means we stay in one place which means we have a huge problem figuring out what to do with all of our poop and our pee and all of our gray water and all this stuff.
That means some part of our house has to be a litter box for domestic humans. That place tends to be really wet. What do you do with all this water? Because of the really cheesy, cheap Home Depot-style building practices that we have, because this is a factory farm not a zoo. If it was a zoo, we would say how do we build bathrooms where we negate this. The idea is how do you raise humans really fast, maximize their labor, suck all the cash out of them at the end, and then kill them off fairly humanely at the end. That’s the program that we’re in. No one cares. We have these bathrooms that are so toxic to people that yeah. I can’t imagine what it’s like if we were to pull back the drywall in most people’s bathrooms or kitchens because what’s in there is dangerous.
Dave: It’s not just dangerous, it’s that you might get cancer. If you have the wrong genes, you’re going to get autoimmunity, but these take time. The problem is that every day, it makes you a jerk. It turns off your pre-frontal cortex. It makes you slow. Literally, you can’t think as well when you’re around this stuff. You’re more in fight or flight, sympathetic dominant, more animal brain, less human brain. That’s the really sneaky stuff there. That’s why I keep focusing on it.
The other thing. You’ve talked so much about pressure on people and animals. We’ve been spraying potent mutagens, like X-Men material stuff on our soil for a very long time. Fungal things as well as bacteria can change their plasmid-level genes with each other. They’re like baseball trading cards. “You have x-ray creation here. Let’s just trade that. Can you make cyanide. Here, here’s my cyanide playing cards.”
Daniel: [Inaudible 00:51:13], yeah.
Dave: They reproduce every twenty minutes. They’ve been doing this for at least thirty years since we started spraying stuff on them.
Daniel: They’ve been doing this since the dawn of the existence of the earth.
Dave: Of course, but those were single gene, not plasmid level. Before it was like “I’ll change over time,” but now it’s like “I just changed five things at once. Here.” Then they swap it all around. This is one of the reasons that our environmental molds that grow in our houses, aside from cheap building practices and building in winter and all that crap, why it’s becoming such a problem and why we see a soil fungus getting into our food like our grains. Like our coffee, dare I say, and all these other things, and why the level of toxins created by those is much higher than it used to be.
We did it to them. We created, not domesticated organisms, although we have those, like to make citric acid from aspergillus. What we did is we created really pissed off, angry, offended-
Daniel: Constantly under attack [crosstalk 00:52:08].
Dave: Yeah, like the Afghanistan of soil fungus is what you’ll find in a Roundup-sprayed crop. Then it gets into the food, and it makes toxins. Then we get those parts per billion that add up. I’m as concerned about that as I am about the radiological, the other toxins, the chemicals that we spray because naturally occurring, self-creating chemicals will fuck you up more. You can stop spraying tomorrow, and we’re still going to be dealing with that through the end of time. We’ve been dealing with food source toxins-
Daniel: That’s one of those things. I hate to be a pest in this, but it’s like, even if we change it all today, the domino effect is still cascading our way.
For me, it comes from a paradigm. It comes from the- We often think about the Neolithic Revolution, we call it, where humans that took on agriculture, all the humans together in the world just at the same time are like, “This is great. Let’s do it.” What actually happened was a small group of people did that and spread out, conquering and assimilating everybody. The native people everywhere in the world have fought it and resisted it. That fight is almost over, but it’s still- The conquest is still happening.
Nobody else wanted to get on this because the paradigms were so different. The native indigenous paradigm is we are enmeshed in these ecosystems, and these species are types of people. We all live here together harmoniously, and we’re anchoring our spot symbiotically with them. Our view that we’ve been taught to sensory gate all information that doesn’t go with this, is no, the world is about humans. All these other species are passive actors. There’s cameo appearances by dogs and cows, maybe, but they’re still small roles.
When it comes to microbes, literally, they’re extras on the set, but this world is about humans. I feel like this paradigm has certainly run its course. Now, through that emergent behavior thing we were talking about, it’s like the world is going how do we evict these folks because they’re ruining the party for everybody.
I think we got to get right with the world really quick here or maybe some of us get right with the world, and some of us don’t. I don’t know, maybe we go to bifurcated different lines or something. I think some of us have to figure out how to live harmoniously again with all of these microbes, which all of these other species. If we don’t, I think we’re going to get run out of town pretty fast.
Dave: I actually don’t worry about the global population problem at all because I’ve looked at reproductive statistics in doing research for the Better Baby Book. One in eight couples can’t conceive without Matrix-level interventions. That’s the Matrix movie where doing a lot of mechanistic interventions, pulling things out of you and putting them back in. Next generation, one in four. One in two kids will have autism by 2025. We don’t have to worry, especially in the West about there being too many people. We have to worry about there being enough healthy people because what we’re doing now sets the stage for our grandkids, epigenetically, very strongly.
Daniel: That’s the thing, right. It’s not just my behaviors today are for me or for my kids but for my kids’ kids. I’m dealing with grandma stuff. That’s why- It’s delicate, but I go out in some public places, certain large chain department stores, for instance, where you go inside and it’s like a circus sideshow of mutants.
Dave: Jeez, Daniel.
Daniel: I’m sorry, but you’re looking around going, oh my gosh, there are whole swaths of people who it’s like what happened is this goes back a couple generations.
Dave: It does.
Daniel: Some of us come from strong stock a couple generations ago. Some of us come from stock that was already quite weakened two generations ago. We’re playing that stuff out now. All of us have the ability to get in there and start epigenetically activating and deactivating stuff, which thank goodness that we know that now. That we can actually make changes now. I think we all have tremendous opportunity, but there are whole groups of people in the Western world whose state of decay is so dramatic that they’re almost not recognizable as being the same. It’s so delicate to say that, but I see people that it’s like, wow, that person is in a deep state of degeneration and celebrating it.
Dave: They’re definitely people on different paths, we can agree on that.
Daniel: Say so.
Dave: We’re running out of time, but there’s a question I’ve asked every guest. I’m really eager to hear your answer on this one and every show with it. It’s what are your top three recommendations for people who want to kick more ass? People who want to perform better. This isn’t just from your rewilding but all of the wisdom in your life, the three most important things that people can do.
Daniel: Yeah. Three things would be immersion in nature, if that means starting on walking down trails or maybe for you it’s backpacking. I love that you mentioned that earlier. Or foraging or whatever that is because there’s four things there, earth, water, air, fire, that we really need to be getting exposed to epigenetically. We need exposure to soil, to naturally occurring water that doesn’t have antibiotics and fluoride in it. To fresh air. Yes, there’s such a thing as freshness. There’s electrical properties in air that we need. We need that sunlight. We’re doing the no soil, no toxic water, artificial air, and artificial light thing. That’s really hard on us. We need more immersion outside. That’s one.
Second is we need movement that’s constantly sophisticating. In other words, I think we need a paradigm of movement in exercise that’s about physical adaptation and training for greater levels of sophistication rather than just pick heavy thing up and do repeat, repeat, repeat. Or the robotic, I’m a robot, I move only in one plane of movement. We need to be teaching ourselves because when we teach our- That’s what builds our- That’s one thing that builds our neural, synaptic connections. We build better neural pathways by moving in more sophisticated ways. Once you learn something, it’s time to add a layer of sophistication and not just keep doing that one thing. It’s not just functional, it’s ever sophisticating functional.
I think we really need to get in touch with really good sex. Really, really good sex. Because we maybe have underestimated what a driving force that is for all species on the planet. It’s so important to us that any diminishment of its importance leads to mental pathology. I think we need to really figure out and become masterful sexually again. Time to get masterful at providing women with what they need to reach orgasm. It’s time to get really good at that. Ladies, time to learn what guys really love. We need to be sharing that with each other in a really, really- We need to understand it’s very important to us because if not, we get so frustrated and demented inside. It comes out in so many toxic ways.
Outside, move, and make love. I think those three things are, they shouldn’t be secrets, but they almost are.
Dave: Fantastic. I was thinking we’re get a chance to talk about sex and orgasm because I’ve done some biohacks on that stuff as well. We just had so many other cool things to talk about. The next time you’re on, Daniel, you’re always welcome.
Daniel: Thank you.
Dave: Maybe you can come on when it’s time to promote your new book.
Daniel: Right, yeah.
Dave: In the meantime, can you give everyone your URLs, whatever other places they can go to find you. We’ll put all this in the show notes. We’ll be linking from the Bulletproof site, but just so people who are driving right now can pick that up.
Daniel: The main place would be DanielVitalis.com. What I want to encourage people to do is get hooked up on my subscription which is, it’s in my newsletter which I put out on the new and full moon. The idea is sync you back up with natural time. The moon is what we now call the month. The month used to be the moon phases, and now it’s just arbitrary. What we’re on is civil time. I’m into this idea of natural time.
My newsletter is out on the full and new moon, and I put my free magazine out, which is a multi-media, content heavy, lots of writing, lots of videos, lots of interviews. Really amazing magazine. It comes out on the solstices, equinox, and cross quarters. Together, that subscription gives you a solar and lunar interlocked calendar which helps to keep you reminded of what’s going on in nature rather than what’s going on on our watches and calendars. Through there, you can find my Find a Spring website. You can find my store, SurThrival.com and all my products. We are going to give a 10% coupon to your listeners.
Dave: Thank you.
Daniel: That’s Bulletproof is that coupon code. You can get all that through DanielVitalis.com, and of course all my social network information is there, too.
Dave: Thank you, Daniel. It has been a pleasure. We talked about some way cool stuff. Seriously, come back on.
Daniel: Thanks so much, man. Great talking to you.
Dave: If you’ve been listening to this podcast and you’re wondering where to start, why don’t you just jump in with both feet? Check out the Bulletproof Total Upgrade Kit which is available on UpgradedSelf.com.
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